Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

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cassowary
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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

Post by cassowary » Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:59 am

neverfail wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:04 pm
cassowary wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 7:45 am
Human nature is the real problem which renders Socialism impossible to achieve.
Human nature as defined by John Calvin?
History has proven me and Calvin correct. Look at Mao's communal farms. People ate the same amount of food regardless of what effort they put in. It was an attempt to apply Marx's dictum, "To each according to his needs; from each according to his ability."

This requires selfless altruism in human nature that is not there. That was why millions starved to death. Look at Venezuela. Socialism failed again. Admit it, Neverfail, human nature does not allow Socialism to succeed.

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Milo
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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

Post by Milo » Thu Jul 12, 2018 9:32 am

Mr. Perfect wrote:
Tue Jul 10, 2018 7:30 pm
Good points Mr. Perfect. I would add that other examples from the left like;

"We need to get the money out of politics!" Ok, so don't vote for anyone who takes money. BTW Hillary raised way more money than Trump.

"Corporations are evil and run everything!" Ok, which corporations. The Corporation you work for? The Corporation you bought your computer and phone from? The corporation that built your car? Do you not want any of those things?

"We need to get out of the MIddle East" as obama knocked over Libya bringing back slavery, and backed rebels in Syria while surging in AFG.

We could go on all day, leftists are losing everywhere because their policies were abject failures and their arguments are riddled with holes.
You talk to yourself on here a lot, however, this is the first time you have formalized it that I know of.

neverfail
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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

Post by neverfail » Thu Jul 12, 2018 6:12 pm

cassowary wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:59 am
neverfail wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:04 pm
cassowary wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 7:45 am
Human nature is the real problem which renders Socialism impossible to achieve.
Human nature as defined by John Calvin?
History has proven me and Calvin correct. Look at Mao's communal farms. People ate the same amount of food regardless of what effort they put in. It was an attempt to apply Marx's dictum, "To each according to his needs; from each according to his ability."

This requires selfless altruism in human nature that is not there. That was why millions starved to death. Look at Venezuela. Socialism failed again. Admit it, Neverfail, human nature does not allow Socialism to succeed.
What you define as "human Nature" I regard as merely the sad and nasty consequence of power politics.

Not the same!

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Sertorio
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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

Post by Sertorio » Fri Jul 13, 2018 4:11 am

cassowary wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:59 am
Admit it, Neverfail, human nature does not allow Socialism to succeed.
Any shortcoming of humanity may be seen as the result of "human nature", but that doesn't mean you cannot do anything about it. Greed by individuals may seriously harm society, and you just let it go because it is "human nature"? Aggressive sexuality is also part of "human nature", but you wouldn't dream of allowing sexual harassment and rape going unpunished. While it may take thousands of years for "human nature" to evolve, we must take steps to stop it harming society. Socialism tries to minimize the damage greed can cause, but you are against it because it goes against "human nature"?... What you propose is the tolerance of the law of the jungle, which, in my opinion, is not very civilized...

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cassowary
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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

Post by cassowary » Fri Jul 13, 2018 7:35 am

Sertorio wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 4:11 am
cassowary wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:59 am
Admit it, Neverfail, human nature does not allow Socialism to succeed.
Any shortcoming of humanity may be seen as the result of "human nature", but that doesn't mean you cannot do anything about it. Greed by individuals may seriously harm society, and you just let it go because it is "human nature"? Aggressive sexuality is also part of "human nature", but you wouldn't dream of allowing sexual harassment and rape going unpunished. While it may take thousands of years for "human nature" to evolve, we must take steps to stop it harming society. Socialism tries to minimize the damage greed can cause, but you are against it because it goes against "human nature"?... What you propose is the tolerance of the law of the jungle, which, in my opinion, is not very civilized...
Capitalism works precisely because it follows the law of the jungle or as Darwin phrased it the "survival of the fittest."

Socialism fails precisely because it goes against this law of the jungle. it is in our nature to work for our and our family's own good. We take care of those who share our genes because we want our genes to survive. That is the way we evolved. (Neverfail - I have to use Darwinism here instead of Calvinist philosophy because Sertorio is secular).

Those who did not care for those that share their genes such as our children or siblings died out. Now Socialism wants us to do something unnatural - care for those who don't share our genes. This requires compulsion. Who wanted to join Mao's or Stalin's collective farms. Maybe a few people. But most people were compelled to do so and tasked with growing crops and feeding people who don't share their genes. People would rather they put in all their energy in feeding their own children and of course themselves.

So this requires compulsion to do something unnatural. Thus you end up with a dictatorship. The desire to take care of your family is not greed but simply human behavior. When you are compelled to do something, you do not put in your best efforts. The result in inefficiency. That is how Socialism causes poverty.

That is why Socialism has always failed and results in poverty and dictatorship.

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cassowary
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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

Post by cassowary » Fri Jul 13, 2018 7:58 am

neverfail wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 6:12 pm
cassowary wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:59 am
neverfail wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:04 pm
cassowary wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 7:45 am
Human nature is the real problem which renders Socialism impossible to achieve.
Human nature as defined by John Calvin?
History has proven me and Calvin correct. Look at Mao's communal farms. People ate the same amount of food regardless of what effort they put in. It was an attempt to apply Marx's dictum, "To each according to his needs; from each according to his ability."

This requires selfless altruism in human nature that is not there. That was why millions starved to death. Look at Venezuela. Socialism failed again. Admit it, Neverfail, human nature does not allow Socialism to succeed.
What you define as "human Nature" I regard as merely the sad and nasty consequence of power politics.

Not the same!
Dictatorship is the result of Socialism because you need massive coercion to force people to do something not in human nature.

I don't know what you mean by power politics. Does that mean dictatorship?

If so, the Israeli Kibbutzim were not operating under a dictatorship. Israel is a democracy. The Socialist inspired Kibbutz also failed. Without a dictatorship to enforce Sociialism, the Kibbutzim had to abandon much of Socialism in order to survive.

Excerpt from link:
As Becker puts it, "nowhere is the failure of socialism clearer than in the radical transformation of the Israeli kibbutz." If a socialist experiment could ever succeed, it should have done so in this case. Most kibbutzim were founded by highly motivated volunteers strongly committed to socialist ideology. For many years, kibbutzim had great prestige in Israeli society, and many of the nation's early leaders were kibbutz members. After Israel became an independent state in 1948, the kibbutzim also benefited from extensive government subsidies. Unlike other socialist experiments, the failure of the kibbutzim cannot be ascribed to lack of ideological fervor, inadequate resources, or hostility from the surrounding "capitalist" society. Despite these advantages, kibbutzim failed to achieve a high level of economic productivity, and even failed to retain the loyalty of many of their own members. Over time, many kibbutz residents became frustrated with the perverse incentives created by socialism, and many also yearned for the individual freedom and privacy created by private property rights.
The children of the original kibbutzim left the kibbutz, especially the talented who felt that the bums were benefiting from their labor and skills. So they had to water down the Socialism and reward people according to their effort and abilities.

A change came to the kibbutz because the kibbutz did not have the power to compel people to do what they rather not do. This is not so with governments:
Of course there is one advantage that socialist governments enjoy that the kibbutzim did not. Unlike a kibbutz, a totalitarian socialist state can use its secret police to suppress dissent and force the people to work for the state whether they want to or not. This explains why Israel's kibbutzim have mostly abandoned socialism, while North Korea and Cuba have not. When given a choice (as in Eastern Europe after 1989), the people of socialist states have rejected socialism even more decisively than most Israeli kibbutzim eventually did.
Thus Socialism and dictatorship go hand in hand. The more Socialism you try to implement, the more compulsion you need, until you get a dictatorship. That's what happened to Venezuela.

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Sertorio
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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

Post by Sertorio » Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:36 am

cassowary wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 7:35 am
Sertorio wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 4:11 am
cassowary wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:59 am
Admit it, Neverfail, human nature does not allow Socialism to succeed.
Any shortcoming of humanity may be seen as the result of "human nature", but that doesn't mean you cannot do anything about it. Greed by individuals may seriously harm society, and you just let it go because it is "human nature"? Aggressive sexuality is also part of "human nature", but you wouldn't dream of allowing sexual harassment and rape going unpunished. While it may take thousands of years for "human nature" to evolve, we must take steps to stop it harming society. Socialism tries to minimize the damage greed can cause, but you are against it because it goes against "human nature"?... What you propose is the tolerance of the law of the jungle, which, in my opinion, is not very civilized...
Capitalism works precisely because it follows the law of the jungle or as Darwin phrased it the "survival of the fittest."

Socialism fails precisely because it goes against this law of the jungle. it is in our nature to work for our and our family's own good. We take care of those who share our genes because we want our genes to survive. That is the way we evolved. (Neverfail - I have to use Darwinism here instead of Calvinist philosophy because Sertorio is secular).

Those who did not care for those that share their genes such as our children or siblings died out. Now Socialism wants us to do something unnatural - care for those who don't share our genes. This requires compulsion. Who wanted to join Mao's or Stalin's collective farms. Maybe a few people. But most people were compelled to do so and tasked with growing crops and feeding people who don't share their genes. People would rather they put in all their energy in feeding their own children and of course themselves.

So this requires compulsion to do something unnatural. Thus you end up with a dictatorship. The desire to take care of your family is not greed but simply human behavior. When you are compelled to do something, you do not put in your best efforts. The result in inefficiency. That is how Socialism causes poverty.

That is why Socialism has always failed and results in poverty and dictatorship.
I congratulate you on your honesty in this post of yours. I cannot agree with you, but there is little I can say, if that's how you feel. Humankind is a predatory species and you seem to be happy leaving it as it is. Funny that you call yourself a Christian, and then deny the possibility of Man fulfilling the Ten Comandments, which are a perfect example of an anti-human nature prescription. You seem to be happy letting our bad behaviour being punished in the afterlife, rather than here and now. Socialists, not believing in an afterlife, prefer to submit society to a more immediate control of its anti-social behaviour...

neverfail
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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

Post by neverfail » Sat Jul 14, 2018 12:04 am

Sertorio wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:36 am
Funny that you call yourself a Christian, and then deny the possibility of Man fulfilling the Ten Comandments, which are a perfect example of an anti-human nature prescription. You seem to be happy letting our bad behaviour being punished in the afterlife, rather than here and now.
Bear in mind Sertorio that esteemed cassowary is a Calvinist. Calvinists do not believe in redemption; only in predestination.

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cassowary
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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

Post by cassowary » Sat Jul 14, 2018 2:40 am

Sertorio wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:36 am
cassowary wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 7:35 am
Sertorio wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 4:11 am
cassowary wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:59 am
Admit it, Neverfail, human nature does not allow Socialism to succeed.
Any shortcoming of humanity may be seen as the result of "human nature", but that doesn't mean you cannot do anything about it. Greed by individuals may seriously harm society, and you just let it go because it is "human nature"? Aggressive sexuality is also part of "human nature", but you wouldn't dream of allowing sexual harassment and rape going unpunished. While it may take thousands of years for "human nature" to evolve, we must take steps to stop it harming society. Socialism tries to minimize the damage greed can cause, but you are against it because it goes against "human nature"?... What you propose is the tolerance of the law of the jungle, which, in my opinion, is not very civilized...
Capitalism works precisely because it follows the law of the jungle or as Darwin phrased it the "survival of the fittest."

Socialism fails precisely because it goes against this law of the jungle. it is in our nature to work for our and our family's own good. We take care of those who share our genes because we want our genes to survive. That is the way we evolved. (Neverfail - I have to use Darwinism here instead of Calvinist philosophy because Sertorio is secular).

Those who did not care for those that share their genes such as our children or siblings died out. Now Socialism wants us to do something unnatural - care for those who don't share our genes. This requires compulsion. Who wanted to join Mao's or Stalin's collective farms. Maybe a few people. But most people were compelled to do so and tasked with growing crops and feeding people who don't share their genes. People would rather they put in all their energy in feeding their own children and of course themselves.

So this requires compulsion to do something unnatural. Thus you end up with a dictatorship. The desire to take care of your family is not greed but simply human behavior. When you are compelled to do something, you do not put in your best efforts. The result in inefficiency. That is how Socialism causes poverty.

That is why Socialism has always failed and results in poverty and dictatorship.
I congratulate you on your honesty in this post of yours. I cannot agree with you, ...
Then explain why you cannot agree with me. Where in my logical reasoning have I gone wrong?

Is it not true that we rather labor for the benefit of ourselves and our families than for other unrelated people?

Yes or no?

Do we not need to use compulsion to make people work for the collective good of strangers?

Yes or no?

Is a reluctant workforce not less efficient?

Yes or no?

Therefore, does poor efficiency not lead to poverty?

Yes or no?

Does compulsion not lead to dictatorship?

Yes or no?


...but there is little I can say, if that's how you feel. Humankind is a predatory species and you seem to be happy leaving it as it is.


So far has anyone succeeded in changing human nature despite massive coercion?

Yes or No?

So far has anyone made Socialism work?

Yes or no?
Funny that you call yourself a Christian, and then deny the possibility of Man fulfilling the Ten Comandments, which are a perfect example of an anti-human nature prescription. You seem to be happy letting our bad behaviour being punished in the afterlife, rather than here and now. Socialists, not believing in an afterlife, prefer to submit society to a more immediate control of its anti-social behaviour...
What is the 8th commandment?

Thou Shalt not Steal.

This means that God accepts the existence of private property. Private property is the foundation stone of capitalism. Collective or communal property is the foundation stone of Socialism. Whatever property we acquire from our work is ours. Socialism is theft. You want to steal property someone else earned.
Last edited by cassowary on Sat Jul 14, 2018 2:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

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cassowary
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Re: Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

Post by cassowary » Sat Jul 14, 2018 2:53 am

neverfail wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 12:04 am
Sertorio wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 8:36 am
Funny that you call yourself a Christian, and then deny the possibility of Man fulfilling the Ten Comandments, which are a perfect example of an anti-human nature prescription. You seem to be happy letting our bad behaviour being punished in the afterlife, rather than here and now.
Bear in mind Sertorio that esteemed cassowary is a Calvinist. Calvinists do not believe in redemption; only in predestination.
Hi Neverfail,

This won't interest Sertorio. But for you, here is the Methodist view on predestination.
Total depravity is affirmed by Wesley, meaning that the fallen human being is completely helpless and in bondage to sin.


Here Wesley is in line with John Calvin. I agree that human beings are depraved and so I don't expect much from humanity like acting sufficiently selflessly enough to make Socialism work.
Predestination is therefore based on God’s foreknowledge, not his will. That is, God corporately predestines all those who respond in faith to salvation, and by foreknowledge he knows who will respond. His foreknowledge does not cause their response.
Our view is that God is like a loving Father and not a King who can do whatever He likes. Love constrains His actions.

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