The Liberation of Venezuela

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SteveFoerster
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Re: The Liberation of Venezuela

Post by SteveFoerster » Wed Feb 13, 2019 11:39 am

Sertorio wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 10:44 am
SteveFoerster wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 7:29 am
Sertorio wrote:
Wed Feb 13, 2019 2:07 am
SteveFoerster wrote:
Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:28 pm

There'd be no need, since I'm not wrong about Venezuela. As everywhere it is tried, socialism there has led to misery, starvation, mass emigration, and death.
That someone, who is clearly intelligent, can state that knowledge is useless, is truly amazing to me... You may say that you don't need to read something because it is wrong. But how do you know it is wrong before you read it?... I am deeply mistrustful of The Economist, but I wouldn't dare saying any of its positions is wrong before I got acquainted with it...
I wouldn't state that. But unlike you I actually understand the difference between knowledge and overt propaganda.
Even to fight propaganda you must know what it states. If you do not read it you cannot know where it's wrong... Simply saying, if the Russians say it it must be a lie, is moronic...
Would you spend time finding out what Stormfront posts on every issue? Eventually one learns which resources are worthwhile and diverts time to them accordingly.
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neverfail
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Re: "Blood is thicker than water". The ethnic tie.

Post by neverfail » Wed Feb 13, 2019 2:18 pm

Cassowary: Returning to our earlier off-topic discussion on Argentina-

Reading through that link authored by Manuel Tanoira you provided (thanks!) on the topic how Socialism ruined Argentina, the contents rung a bell in my mind:

http://www.applet-magic.com/argentinatanoira2.htm

I am in no doubt that Peronist policies were inspired by the role model template of Benito Mussolini's Fascist Italy: the pioneer in modern corporate state structure. The Argentine military in those inter-World War years had ties to Italy (i.e. some Argentina officers were sent over there for advanced training.)

(I accept that Fascism was a socialist heresy. Mussolini's dad was himself a socialist.)

it is well known that especially in the early years of the Second World War Argentina, though technically neutral, had widespread public sympathy and support for the axis side. As a young man I even knew a sailor who had served on a British warship that in 1940 chased a German vessel into the mouth of the Plate River. This man told me that "when we were given our shore leave in Buenos Aries, the bus drivers would not even let us board their buses".
.........................................................................................................................

Argentina started out at the beginning of the 19th century with just a tiny Hispanic population. Over the following 120 years it built itself up by being a drawcard for mass migration from Europe. The biggest single group of immigrants by ethnicity were Italians.

If you were to check out the Buenos Aries telephone directory or that of any large Argentine city, you would likely find far more subscribers with Italian surnames listed than Hispanic ones. That's right; so many Italians migrated to Argentina that they have arguably given the country a national character that is more closely Italian than Spanish.

So arguably the "socialist" (or rather, corporate statist) side of Peronism originated from Fascist italy and reflected the large Italian component in Argentina's population.

( :o Why, the Catholic Church is now even headed by an Italo-Argentinian pontiff. :) )

The presence of so many sympathetic immigrant Italians in Argentina would have been at the time too tempting a potential tool of foreign policy propaganda for Mussolini and cohorts to ignore. I have no doubt that Mussolini's agents would have been very active there between 1922 and the total defeat of fascist Italy with the allied invasion of 1943.

For a time Fascist Italy was able to project itself as a success story. It would have lent people of Italian antecedents worldwide a sense of ethnic pride. The image projected would have been approximately 'Mussolini picked Italy up out of the gutter and made it a respected power in the world.'

(Very much like Anglo Australians and Anglo New zealanders I can recall from my boyhood years back in the 1950's; relishing every apparent triumph won by mother England: their geographically distant ancestral homeland.)

(Yep; and just like Sino Singaporeans. even those who purportedly abhor Chinese Communism, still nevertheless barracking enthusiastically for the PRC Olympic games team to win as many gold medals as possible.)

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Re: The Liberation of Venezuela

Post by neverfail » Thu Feb 14, 2019 7:40 pm

Back to Venezuela again.

I saw excerpts from an interview of President Maduro just the other night. It was conducted by a woman reporter who (from her accent and interview style) was probably employed by one of the American TV networks. It was very interesting in what it revealed.

The interviewer, among other things, acquainted Maduro with the fact that "we (Her and the camera crew) had seen people in Caracas so hungry that they were rummaging in dumpster bins looking for scraps to eat. She even showed video clip of the scavenging to prove it.

Maduro's response was to the effect "yes, we have 'problems' here in Venezuela but we do not have mass starvation. " He betrayed no sign of being nonplussed by the questions.

That along with similarly smooth responses the interviewer asked did not leave me with the impression that Maduro was lying in the sense of setting out to deceive the interviewer. This man simply does not know what is going on in the country around him.

Maduro is in other words a "mushroom" president. If you are wondering what a mushroom president is, he is one whose ministers, advisors and subordinate members of staff all keep in the dark and feed bullshit.

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Re: The Liberation of Venezuela

Post by Doc » Thu Feb 14, 2019 10:42 pm

neverfail wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 7:40 pm
Back to Venezuela again.

I saw excerpts from an interview of President Maduro just the other night. It was conducted by a woman reporter who (from her accent and interview style) was probably employed by one of the American TV networks. It was very interesting in what it revealed.

The interviewer, among other things, acquainted Maduro with the fact that "we (Her and the camera crew) had seen people in Caracas so hungry that they were rummaging in dumpster bins looking for scraps to eat. She even showed video clip of the scavenging to prove it.

Maduro's response was to the effect "yes, we have 'problems' here in Venezuela but we do not have mass starvation. " He betrayed no sign of being nonplussed by the questions.

That along with similarly smooth responses the interviewer asked did not leave me with the impression that Maduro was lying in the sense of setting out to deceive the interviewer. This man simply does not know what is going on in the country around him.

Maduro is in other words a "mushroom" president. If you are wondering what a mushroom president is, he is one whose ministers, advisors and subordinate members of staff all keep in the dark and feed bullshit.
"let them eat cake"
“"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros

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Re: The Liberation of Venezuela

Post by Doc » Thu Feb 14, 2019 11:57 pm

cassowary wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 4:53 am
Sertorio,

It sounds like utter rubbish to me. For example:
Finally, we are comparing apples to oranges here: the task of the AngloZionists is to destroy the Venezuelan economy ...
What destroyed the Venezuelan economy is Socialism, which has failed everywhere it has been tried. Blaming it on the US is nonsense. Why can't the writer see that? Why does he have a blind spot? The next quote will answer that question.
I really mean no offense to the supporters of Hugo Chavez and his ideals (I very much include myself in this category) ...
The guy is a Socialist/Communist. So that's why he has a blind spot. He can't see that Socialism does not work. So he must blame it on America.

It is the same blind spot you have, Sertorio.

..................................................................................................................

He calls the US and maybe UK, Anglozionists. What has zionism got to do with it? But it does indicate his anti-Israel ideas. Why are leftists so anti-Israel?

Also Maduro claims he is fighting for the natural resources of Venezuela for the Venezuelan people. Yet he has sold huge part of those resources to countries like China and Turkey. Chavez and now Maduro were / are anti-semitic


https://www.adl.org/news/article/hugo-c ... wn-words-0
Hugo Chavez In His Own Words

March 14, 2013

The repeated anti-Semitic and anti-Israel views of Hugo Chavez's leadership place Venezuela among the foremost threats to Jews and the State of Israel. The Chavez regime repeatedly demonizes the State of Israel and most recenly a report was leaked that the Venezuelan intelligence agency (SEBIN) is targeting and spying on the Venezuelan Jewish community as well as on Venezuelan companies and organizations with ties to Israel.

Each time there is a conflict in the Middle East, the government's bias gets in the way and uses age-old anti-Semitic stereotypes such as Zionist control of the government, media and finances, claims of Jews as "Christ killers," calls to boycott companies allegedly owned by Jews, and the use of Nazi imagery to describe the Jewish State.

For the Chavez regime, it wasn't enough to sever diplomatic relations with the State of Israel in 2009. President Chavez broadcasted on national TV that the Mossad wants to kill him, ranted that the "genocide State of Israel" finances the Venezuelan opposition, and cursed the State of Israel saying, "I want to condemn from the bottom of my soul, from the bottom of my guts: damn you State of Israel! Damn you Terrorists and Assassins!"

This report offers a selected compilation of statements by Hugo Chavez on Jews, Zionism and Israel in his own words.

Hugo Chavez in His Own Words, 2006
Hugo Chavez in His Own Words, 2008
Hugo Chavez in His Own Words, 2009
Hugo Chavez in His Own Words, 2010

More from this Section
“"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros

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Sertorio
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Re: The Liberation of Venezuela

Post by Sertorio » Fri Feb 15, 2019 3:39 am

neverfail wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 7:40 pm
Back to Venezuela again.

I saw excerpts from an interview of President Maduro just the other night. It was conducted by a woman reporter who (from her accent and interview style) was probably employed by one of the American TV networks. It was very interesting in what it revealed.

The interviewer, among other things, acquainted Maduro with the fact that "we (Her and the camera crew) had seen people in Caracas so hungry that they were rummaging in dumpster bins looking for scraps to eat. She even showed video clip of the scavenging to prove it.

Maduro's response was to the effect "yes, we have 'problems' here in Venezuela but we do not have mass starvation. " He betrayed no sign of being nonplussed by the questions.

That along with similarly smooth responses the interviewer asked did not leave me with the impression that Maduro was lying in the sense of setting out to deceive the interviewer. This man simply does not know what is going on in the country around him.

Maduro is in other words a "mushroom" president. If you are wondering what a mushroom president is, he is one whose ministers, advisors and subordinate members of staff all keep in the dark and feed bullshit.
Latin America is a very complex place, and Latin-Americans are a very complex society. One doesn't get to be an "expert" on that region of the world without understanding their languages, and without an extended exposure to it, to its peoples, to its literature. No ideology or political system in Latin America is like their namesakes elsewhere in the world, and that's why so many people are wrong about their assessments on the region. Socialism, as such, does not exist there. Social concerns in Latin America get a much better expression in liberation theology than in European-type socialism. And it gets more complicated to understand when you see liberation theology disconnected from its religious component. Which is how it is seen by Latin American politicians on the left, like Chavez or Maduro. The social concern is very genuine, and leftist policies are meant to restore the dignity of the poor, by creating the necessary conditions for them to be fed, to be housed, to be educated and to receive proper medical care. To achieve that one must fight all forms of exploitation, by the local oligarchy and by foreign interests. That may create some inefficiencies, but that's not seen as a major problem. Maduro knows there are problems in Venezuela, but he feels that bearing with them is better than delivering his country in the hands of the exploiters. So, don't expect him to give up, resign and go on extended holidays anywhere in the world. Because he truly believes he is doing what is right for the Venezuelan people, which mostly means the poor people. As long as he has the support of the Army and of the Militias he will resist all pressure from abroad. And well meaning foreigners should opt for cooperation with him, rather than trying to overthrow him. For the sake of the needed Venezuelans. But western arrogance will not allow western politicians to ever understand this. Latin Americans do not know what is best for them, so they must be told what to do and how. The end result of which will be disaster...

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Re: The Liberation of Venezuela

Post by Doc » Fri Feb 15, 2019 6:04 am

Sertorio wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 3:39 am
neverfail wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 7:40 pm
Back to Venezuela again.

I saw excerpts from an interview of President Maduro just the other night. It was conducted by a woman reporter who (from her accent and interview style) was probably employed by one of the American TV networks. It was very interesting in what it revealed.

The interviewer, among other things, acquainted Maduro with the fact that "we (Her and the camera crew) had seen people in Caracas so hungry that they were rummaging in dumpster bins looking for scraps to eat. She even showed video clip of the scavenging to prove it.

Maduro's response was to the effect "yes, we have 'problems' here in Venezuela but we do not have mass starvation. " He betrayed no sign of being nonplussed by the questions.

That along with similarly smooth responses the interviewer asked did not leave me with the impression that Maduro was lying in the sense of setting out to deceive the interviewer. This man simply does not know what is going on in the country around him.

Maduro is in other words a "mushroom" president. If you are wondering what a mushroom president is, he is one whose ministers, advisors and subordinate members of staff all keep in the dark and feed bullshit.
Latin America is a very complex place, and Latin-Americans are a very complex society. One doesn't get to be an "expert" on that region of the world without understanding their languages, and without an extended exposure to it, to its peoples, to its literature. No ideology or political system in Latin America is like their namesakes elsewhere in the world, and that's why so many people are wrong about their assessments on the region. Socialism, as such, does not exist there. Social concerns in Latin America get a much better expression in liberation theology than in European-type socialism. And it gets more complicated to understand when you see liberation theology disconnected from its religious component. Which is how it is seen by Latin American politicians on the left, like Chavez or Maduro. The social concern is very genuine, and leftist policies are meant to restore the dignity of the poor, by creating the necessary conditions for them to be fed, to be housed, to be educated and to receive proper medical care. To achieve that one must fight all forms of exploitation, by the local oligarchy and by foreign interests. That may create some inefficiencies, but that's not seen as a major problem. Maduro knows there are problems in Venezuela, but he feels that bearing with them is better than delivering his country in the hands of the exploiters. So, don't expect him to give up, resign and go on extended holidays anywhere in the world. Because he truly believes he is doing what is right for the Venezuelan people, which mostly means the poor people. As long as he has the support of the Army and of the Militias he will resist all pressure from abroad. And well meaning foreigners should opt for cooperation with him, rather than trying to overthrow him. For the sake of the needed Venezuelans. But western arrogance will not allow western politicians to ever understand this. Latin Americans do not know what is best for them, so they must be told what to do and how. The end result of which will be disaster...

Again Maduro has given 49% of shares of Venezuelan oil production to China. How is that not exploitation of Venezuela's oil? How is that doing what is right for the Venezuelan people?
“"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros

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Re: The Liberation of Venezuela

Post by Sertorio » Fri Feb 15, 2019 6:49 am

Doc wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 6:04 am
Sertorio wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 3:39 am
neverfail wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 7:40 pm
Back to Venezuela again.

I saw excerpts from an interview of President Maduro just the other night. It was conducted by a woman reporter who (from her accent and interview style) was probably employed by one of the American TV networks. It was very interesting in what it revealed.

The interviewer, among other things, acquainted Maduro with the fact that "we (Her and the camera crew) had seen people in Caracas so hungry that they were rummaging in dumpster bins looking for scraps to eat. She even showed video clip of the scavenging to prove it.

Maduro's response was to the effect "yes, we have 'problems' here in Venezuela but we do not have mass starvation. " He betrayed no sign of being nonplussed by the questions.

That along with similarly smooth responses the interviewer asked did not leave me with the impression that Maduro was lying in the sense of setting out to deceive the interviewer. This man simply does not know what is going on in the country around him.

Maduro is in other words a "mushroom" president. If you are wondering what a mushroom president is, he is one whose ministers, advisors and subordinate members of staff all keep in the dark and feed bullshit.
Latin America is a very complex place, and Latin-Americans are a very complex society. One doesn't get to be an "expert" on that region of the world without understanding their languages, and without an extended exposure to it, to its peoples, to its literature. No ideology or political system in Latin America is like their namesakes elsewhere in the world, and that's why so many people are wrong about their assessments on the region. Socialism, as such, does not exist there. Social concerns in Latin America get a much better expression in liberation theology than in European-type socialism. And it gets more complicated to understand when you see liberation theology disconnected from its religious component. Which is how it is seen by Latin American politicians on the left, like Chavez or Maduro. The social concern is very genuine, and leftist policies are meant to restore the dignity of the poor, by creating the necessary conditions for them to be fed, to be housed, to be educated and to receive proper medical care. To achieve that one must fight all forms of exploitation, by the local oligarchy and by foreign interests. That may create some inefficiencies, but that's not seen as a major problem. Maduro knows there are problems in Venezuela, but he feels that bearing with them is better than delivering his country in the hands of the exploiters. So, don't expect him to give up, resign and go on extended holidays anywhere in the world. Because he truly believes he is doing what is right for the Venezuelan people, which mostly means the poor people. As long as he has the support of the Army and of the Militias he will resist all pressure from abroad. And well meaning foreigners should opt for cooperation with him, rather than trying to overthrow him. For the sake of the needed Venezuelans. But western arrogance will not allow western politicians to ever understand this. Latin Americans do not know what is best for them, so they must be told what to do and how. The end result of which will be disaster...

Again Maduro has given 49% of shares of Venezuelan oil production to China. How is that not exploitation of Venezuela's oil? How is that doing what is right for the Venezuelan people?
Exploitation is not measured by the share of strategic firms being owned by foreigners, but by the way they handle that share. If royalties are adequate and taxes are paid, foreign participation - which may be essential to acquire modern technologies - is quite acceptable.

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Re: The Liberation of Venezuela

Post by Doc » Fri Feb 15, 2019 8:29 am

Sertorio wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 6:49 am
Doc wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 6:04 am
Sertorio wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 3:39 am
neverfail wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 7:40 pm
Back to Venezuela again.

I saw excerpts from an interview of President Maduro just the other night. It was conducted by a woman reporter who (from her accent and interview style) was probably employed by one of the American TV networks. It was very interesting in what it revealed.

The interviewer, among other things, acquainted Maduro with the fact that "we (Her and the camera crew) had seen people in Caracas so hungry that they were rummaging in dumpster bins looking for scraps to eat. She even showed video clip of the scavenging to prove it.

Maduro's response was to the effect "yes, we have 'problems' here in Venezuela but we do not have mass starvation. " He betrayed no sign of being nonplussed by the questions.

That along with similarly smooth responses the interviewer asked did not leave me with the impression that Maduro was lying in the sense of setting out to deceive the interviewer. This man simply does not know what is going on in the country around him.

Maduro is in other words a "mushroom" president. If you are wondering what a mushroom president is, he is one whose ministers, advisors and subordinate members of staff all keep in the dark and feed bullshit.
Latin America is a very complex place, and Latin-Americans are a very complex society. One doesn't get to be an "expert" on that region of the world without understanding their languages, and without an extended exposure to it, to its peoples, to its literature. No ideology or political system in Latin America is like their namesakes elsewhere in the world, and that's why so many people are wrong about their assessments on the region. Socialism, as such, does not exist there. Social concerns in Latin America get a much better expression in liberation theology than in European-type socialism. And it gets more complicated to understand when you see liberation theology disconnected from its religious component. Which is how it is seen by Latin American politicians on the left, like Chavez or Maduro. The social concern is very genuine, and leftist policies are meant to restore the dignity of the poor, by creating the necessary conditions for them to be fed, to be housed, to be educated and to receive proper medical care. To achieve that one must fight all forms of exploitation, by the local oligarchy and by foreign interests. That may create some inefficiencies, but that's not seen as a major problem. Maduro knows there are problems in Venezuela, but he feels that bearing with them is better than delivering his country in the hands of the exploiters. So, don't expect him to give up, resign and go on extended holidays anywhere in the world. Because he truly believes he is doing what is right for the Venezuelan people, which mostly means the poor people. As long as he has the support of the Army and of the Militias he will resist all pressure from abroad. And well meaning foreigners should opt for cooperation with him, rather than trying to overthrow him. For the sake of the needed Venezuelans. But western arrogance will not allow western politicians to ever understand this. Latin Americans do not know what is best for them, so they must be told what to do and how. The end result of which will be disaster...

Again Maduro has given 49% of shares of Venezuelan oil production to China. How is that not exploitation of Venezuela's oil? How is that doing what is right for the Venezuelan people?
Exploitation is not measured by the share of strategic firms being owned by foreigners, but by the way they handle that share. If royalties are adequate and taxes are paid, foreign participation - which may be essential to acquire modern technologies - is quite acceptable.
You will excuse anything so noted.
“"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros

neverfail
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Re: The Liberation of Venezuela

Post by neverfail » Fri Feb 15, 2019 2:36 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Fri Feb 15, 2019 6:49 am


Exploitation is not measured by the share of strategic firms being owned by foreigners, but by the way they handle that share. If royalties are adequate and taxes are paid, foreign participation - which may be essential to acquire modern technologies - is quite acceptable.
Technically a correct observation.

So had that 49% been allocated to American or other Western oil companies, would these not also have been obliged to pay the very same scale of royalties and taxes?

(As though you believe that payments by foreign investors is a matter of altruism! :lol: , Come off it, Sertorio!))

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