What does Britain hope to gain from this?

Discussion of current events
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Sertorio
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Re: What does Britain hope to gain from this?

Post by Sertorio » Sat Jan 12, 2019 4:47 am

neverfail wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:55 am
Sertorio wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:38 am
neverfail wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 5:23 am

Once the Indonesians had invaded and subjugated East Timor it looked as though they were destined to be there forever. The chances of East Timor ever being able to wrest sovereign independence from such a colossus looked nil. Australia just had to live with that and continue to do business with our near neighbour to the northwest.
If the fait accompli is the guiding line of Australia's policies, why not recognize Crimea's reunification with Russia or China's sovereignty over the islands on the South China's sea?...
Neither of these above mentioned are located right on our front doorstep. Indonesia is considered here to be a special case because of its close geographical proximity.
Not a very convincing argument, is it?...

neverfail
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Re: What does Britain hope to gain from this?

Post by neverfail » Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:50 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 4:47 am
neverfail wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:55 am
Sertorio wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:38 am
neverfail wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 5:23 am

Once the Indonesians had invaded and subjugated East Timor it looked as though they were destined to be there forever. The chances of East Timor ever being able to wrest sovereign independence from such a colossus looked nil. Australia just had to live with that and continue to do business with our near neighbour to the northwest.
If the fait accompli is the guiding line of Australia's policies, why not recognize Crimea's reunification with Russia or China's sovereignty over the islands on the South China's sea?...
Neither of these above mentioned are located right on our front doorstep. Indonesia is considered here to be a special case because of its close geographical proximity.
Not a very convincing argument, is it?...
I think it is Sertorio. Worldwide, governments are normally guided by pragmatic interest; not by idealism.

They strive for that which is achievable, not that which is ideal.

Love Indonesia or lump the place we still have to live alongside of it; regardless of the government or regime of government in place up there.

Russia: utterly unimportant to Australia in every way I can think of. We neither need to placate Russia over the annexation of Crimea nor do we need to confront Russia over it. Australian policy abroad has a much freer hand here.

China? More problematic. Somewhere in between Russia and Indonesia (literally as well as figuratively). Immensely more important to us than Russia because of our trade and commercial ties but luckily still with a wide buffer of sea and land separating us from it - which helps to keep the PRC somewhat more "loveable" to us. China's recent encroachment on the South China Sea shoals and atolls potentially brings the PRC closer to our northern shoreline and that is a very unwelcome new development.

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Sertorio
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Re: What does Britain hope to gain from this?

Post by Sertorio » Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:17 pm

neverfail wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:50 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 4:47 am
neverfail wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:55 am
Sertorio wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:38 am
neverfail wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 5:23 am

Once the Indonesians had invaded and subjugated East Timor it looked as though they were destined to be there forever. The chances of East Timor ever being able to wrest sovereign independence from such a colossus looked nil. Australia just had to live with that and continue to do business with our near neighbour to the northwest.
If the fait accompli is the guiding line of Australia's policies, why not recognize Crimea's reunification with Russia or China's sovereignty over the islands on the South China's sea?...
Neither of these above mentioned are located right on our front doorstep. Indonesia is considered here to be a special case because of its close geographical proximity.
Not a very convincing argument, is it?...
I think it is Sertorio. Worldwide, governments are normally guided by pragmatic interest; not by idealism.

They strive for that which is achievable, not that which is ideal.

Love Indonesia or lump the place we still have to live alongside of it; regardless of the government or regime of government in place up there.

Russia: utterly unimportant to Australia in every way I can think of. We neither need to placate Russia over the annexation of Crimea nor do we need to confront Russia over it. Australian policy abroad has a much freer hand here.

China? More problematic. Somewhere in between Russia and Indonesia (literally as well as figuratively). Immensely more important to us than Russia because of our trade and commercial ties but luckily still with a wide buffer of sea and land separating us from it - which helps to keep the PRC somewhat more "loveable" to us. China's recent encroachment on the South China Sea shoals and atolls potentially brings the PRC closer to our northern shoreline and that is a very unwelcome new development.
I wouldn't expect - nor welcome - governments being guided by idealism, but it would be nice to see them being guided by principles...

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Milo
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Re: What does Britain hope to gain from this?

Post by Milo » Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:22 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:51 pm
Milo wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 3:23 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Thu Jan 10, 2019 5:49 pm

You are right. Where I mentioned Ramos Horta I should have said Xanana Gusmao. My mistake. But it doesn't change the facts mentioned by me, nor the problems with Australia.
It literally DOES change the facts mentioned by you and you still haven't explained how this one person ordered the UN to change the composition of a a force not under their command. Nor have you provided any proof of anyone feeling the way you said they did about the Australians being there or that anyone felt that including Portugese forces would change anything.
Sometimes, rather than ask questions you should use your brains. Surprisingly enough it does help getting the right answers...
I didn't ask any questions.

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cassowary
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Re: What does Britain hope to gain from this?

Post by cassowary » Sat Jan 12, 2019 8:50 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:17 pm
neverfail wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:50 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 4:47 am
neverfail wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:55 am
Sertorio wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 1:38 am
neverfail wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 5:23 am

Once the Indonesians had invaded and subjugated East Timor it looked as though they were destined to be there forever. The chances of East Timor ever being able to wrest sovereign independence from such a colossus looked nil. Australia just had to live with that and continue to do business with our near neighbour to the northwest.
If the fait accompli is the guiding line of Australia's policies, why not recognize Crimea's reunification with Russia or China's sovereignty over the islands on the South China's sea?...
Neither of these above mentioned are located right on our front doorstep. Indonesia is considered here to be a special case because of its close geographical proximity.
Not a very convincing argument, is it?...
I think it is Sertorio. Worldwide, governments are normally guided by pragmatic interest; not by idealism.

They strive for that which is achievable, not that which is ideal.

Love Indonesia or lump the place we still have to live alongside of it; regardless of the government or regime of government in place up there.

Russia: utterly unimportant to Australia in every way I can think of. We neither need to placate Russia over the annexation of Crimea nor do we need to confront Russia over it. Australian policy abroad has a much freer hand here.

China? More problematic. Somewhere in between Russia and Indonesia (literally as well as figuratively). Immensely more important to us than Russia because of our trade and commercial ties but luckily still with a wide buffer of sea and land separating us from it - which helps to keep the PRC somewhat more "loveable" to us. China's recent encroachment on the South China Sea shoals and atolls potentially brings the PRC closer to our northern shoreline and that is a very unwelcome new development.
I wouldn't expect - nor welcome - governments being guided by idealism, but it would be nice to see them being guided by principles...
What the difference between idealism and principle. Isn’t principle based on idealism?
The Imp :D

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SteveFoerster
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Re: What does Britain hope to gain from this?

Post by SteveFoerster » Sat Jan 12, 2019 9:31 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:17 pm
I wouldn't expect - nor welcome - governments being guided by idealism, but it would be nice to see them being guided by principles...
They are, it's just that the guiding principle is the self-interest of policymakers.
Writer, technologist, educator, gadfly.
President of New World University: http://newworld.ac

neverfail
Posts: 3537
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2016 3:47 am

Re: What does Britain hope to gain from this?

Post by neverfail » Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:24 am

Sertorio wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:17 pm

I wouldn't expect - nor welcome - governments being guided by idealism, but it would be nice to see them being guided by principles...
Sertorio, with regard to East Timor: I would have been happier had our governments of the day stood up to the Suharto government and told them "hands off East Timor" from the very start. Seeing the Indonesian military invade ET and then maltreat the East Timorese for almost a quarter of a century frankly always gave me the creeps. Sometimes I wish that governments would occasionally waive adhering to the line of pragmatic self-interest and have an attack of wild, giddy altruism. But I am just an armchair critic currently behind a keyboard. It was not my head that was in the noose. I never had to bear responsibility for the unforeseen consequences.

neverfail
Posts: 3537
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2016 3:47 am

Re: What does Britain hope to gain from this?

Post by neverfail » Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:25 am

SteveFoerster wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 9:31 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:17 pm
I wouldn't expect - nor welcome - governments being guided by idealism, but it would be nice to see them being guided by principles...
They are, it's just that the guiding principle is the self-interest of policymakers.
Yes. The f***ers all want to get reelected.

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Sertorio
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Re: What does Britain hope to gain from this?

Post by Sertorio » Sun Jan 13, 2019 4:57 am

SteveFoerster wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 9:31 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:17 pm
I wouldn't expect - nor welcome - governments being guided by idealism, but it would be nice to see them being guided by principles...
They are, it's just that the guiding principle is the self-interest of policymakers.
I'm afraid you are right. I was thinking more of the ethical type of principles. But that makes me an idealist, I'm afraid... ;)

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Sertorio
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Re: What does Britain hope to gain from this?

Post by Sertorio » Sun Jan 13, 2019 5:00 am

neverfail wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 12:24 am
Sertorio wrote:
Sat Jan 12, 2019 2:17 pm

I wouldn't expect - nor welcome - governments being guided by idealism, but it would be nice to see them being guided by principles...
Sertorio, with regard to East Timor: I would have been happier had our governments of the day stood up to the Suharto government and told them "hands off East Timor" from the very start. Seeing the Indonesian military invade ET and then maltreat the East Timorese for almost a quarter of a century frankly always gave me the creeps. Sometimes I wish that governments would occasionally waive adhering to the line of pragmatic self-interest and have an attack of wild, giddy altruism. But I am just an armchair critic currently behind a keyboard. It was not my head that was in the noose. I never had to bear responsibility for the unforeseen consequences.
You are also a citizen who votes and helps chosing those who make the decisions... We forget that far too often...

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