'Europeans won’t fight" - Spengler.

neverfail
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'Europeans won’t fight" - Spengler.

Post by neverfail » Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:12 am

http://www.atimes.com/article/natos-pro ... ont-fight/

(quote) Trump’s remonstrations will fall on deaf ears. Why should Europeans spend money on arms, when they have no intention of using them?

Jim the Moron
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Re: 'Europeans won’t fight" - Spengler.

Post by Jim the Moron » Thu Jul 12, 2018 5:56 am

neverfail wrote:
Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:12 am
http://www.atimes.com/article/natos-pro ... ont-fight/

(quote) Trump’s remonstrations will fall on deaf ears. Why should Europeans spend money on arms, when they have no intention of using them?
Spengler is right on.
"It is refreshing to hear an American president call the Europeans out for the sybarites and deadbeats they are, rather than repeat the old cant about the glories of the Atlantic Alliance and the gallantry of America's allies."

Can't think of a better time than this for America to pull out of NATO, lock, stock, and barrel. And while they're at it, get the hell out of the UN. Bilateral agreements are the way to go.

neverfail
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Re: 'Europeans won’t fight" - Spengler.

Post by neverfail » Thu Jul 12, 2018 6:33 pm

In Spengler's column I notice that in the list of countries in the survey results demonstrating the percentage of the population willing to fight for their countries; I notice that at the top of the list were the Poles and the the Latvians. These two have reason to be so highly motivated. Both have within living memory had ample experience with being invaded by their larger neighbours.

Strangely enough, the Americans seem to match them in terms of expressing a willingness to fight for their country. Yet I can sense a difference.

When the Poles have had to fight over the past three centuries it has nearly always been to fend off foreign invaders pouring over their borders. No doubt this is the sort of war they anticipate having to fight in future. Any time the Yanks have fought a war since 1815 it has been in the form of a protagonist war against foreigners to project US power abroad. This is no doubt the sort of war Americans expect to fight in future.

Poles and Latvians demonstrate real counrage while American respondents more likely exhibit a boastful sort of bravado. Poles have a track record of fighting resolutely even when the chips are down while Americans seem to fight willingly and well only when they think that they are winning.

Jim the Moron
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Re: 'Europeans won’t fight" - Spengler.

Post by Jim the Moron » Fri Jul 13, 2018 7:59 am

A different take on the future of NATO:

"The Coming Split in NATO"
https://www.defenseone.com/ideas/2018/0 ... annelriver

". . . it was the United States that was always dragging a reluctant Europe into policing conflicts."

"Now, however, we are on the cusp of a reversal. Americans, on the populist right, the socialist left, and most points in between, have lost their appetite for armed intervention."

"Europe, meanwhile, has no choice but to look southward, to the fragile states of Africa, which hold the key to its future."

"Europeans will spend more on defense not in response to hectoring from Trump or his successors. Rather, they will do so out of necessity."

Europe's future dependent on relations with Africa, and not the US?

neverfail
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Re: 'Europeans won’t fight" - Spengler.

Post by neverfail » Sat Jul 14, 2018 12:14 am

Jim the Moron wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 7:59 am
A different take on the future of NATO:

"The Coming Split in NATO"
https://www.defenseone.com/ideas/2018/0 ... annelriver

". . . it was the United States that was always dragging a reluctant Europe into policing conflicts."

"Now, however, we are on the cusp of a reversal. Americans, on the populist right, the socialist left, and most points in between, have lost their appetite for armed intervention."

"Europe, meanwhile, has no choice but to look southward, to the fragile states of Africa, which hold the key to its future."

"Europeans will spend more on defense not in response to hectoring from Trump or his successors. Rather, they will do so out of necessity."

Europe's future dependent on relations with Africa, and not the US?
I have been unable to read your provided link Jim as it will not respond due to some unknown glitch. But just off the top of my head; I don't see Europe as having any sort of future at all if it fails to maintain its internal cohesion. The prospects for that look dimmer by the day.

I can't see how relations with Africa are either here or there.

Jim the Moron
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Re: 'Europeans won’t fight" - Spengler.

Post by Jim the Moron » Sat Jul 14, 2018 7:08 am

neverfail wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 12:14 am
Jim the Moron wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 7:59 am
A different take on the future of NATO:

"The Coming Split in NATO"
https://www.defenseone.com/ideas/2018/0 ... annelriver

". . . it was the United States that was always dragging a reluctant Europe into policing conflicts."

"Now, however, we are on the cusp of a reversal. Americans, on the populist right, the socialist left, and most points in between, have lost their appetite for armed intervention."

"Europe, meanwhile, has no choice but to look southward, to the fragile states of Africa, which hold the key to its future."

"Europeans will spend more on defense not in response to hectoring from Trump or his successors. Rather, they will do so out of necessity."

Europe's future dependent on relations with Africa, and not the US?
I have been unable to read your provided link Jim as it will not respond due to some unknown glitch. But just off the top of my head; I don't see Europe as having any sort of future at all if it fails to maintain its internal cohesion. The prospects for that look dimmer by the day.

I can't see how relations with Africa are either here or there.
The link still works for me, neverfail; please try again. I found it persuasive - "a different take."

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armchair_pundit
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Re: 'Europeans won’t fight" - Spengler.

Post by armchair_pundit » Sat Jul 14, 2018 1:25 pm

Jim the Moron wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 7:08 am
neverfail wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 12:14 am
Jim the Moron wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 7:59 am
A different take on the future of NATO:

"The Coming Split in NATO"
https://www.defenseone.com/ideas/2018/0 ... annelriver

". . . it was the United States that was always dragging a reluctant Europe into policing conflicts."

"Now, however, we are on the cusp of a reversal. Americans, on the populist right, the socialist left, and most points in between, have lost their appetite for armed intervention."

"Europe, meanwhile, has no choice but to look southward, to the fragile states of Africa, which hold the key to its future."

"Europeans will spend more on defense not in response to hectoring from Trump or his successors. Rather, they will do so out of necessity."

Europe's future dependent on relations with Africa, and not the US?
I have been unable to read your provided link Jim as it will not respond due to some unknown glitch. But just off the top of my head; I don't see Europe as having any sort of future at all if it fails to maintain its internal cohesion. The prospects for that look dimmer by the day.

I can't see how relations with Africa are either here or there.
The link still works for me, neverfail; please try again. I found it persuasive - "a different take."
I would love to see Uche's response to that.

another title for this artice could be wrote:The old imperialist bones of colonial Africa haven't all decayed away...

neverfail
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Re: 'Europeans won’t fight" - Spengler.

Post by neverfail » Sat Jul 14, 2018 3:49 pm

Jim the Moron wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 7:08 am
neverfail wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 12:14 am
Jim the Moron wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 7:59 am
A different take on the future of NATO:

"The Coming Split in NATO"
https://www.defenseone.com/ideas/2018/0 ... annelriver

". . . it was the United States that was always dragging a reluctant Europe into policing conflicts."

"Now, however, we are on the cusp of a reversal. Americans, on the populist right, the socialist left, and most points in between, have lost their appetite for armed intervention."

"Europe, meanwhile, has no choice but to look southward, to the fragile states of Africa, which hold the key to its future."

"Europeans will spend more on defense not in response to hectoring from Trump or his successors. Rather, they will do so out of necessity."

Europe's future dependent on relations with Africa, and not the US?
I have been unable to read your provided link Jim as it will not respond due to some unknown glitch. But just off the top of my head; I don't see Europe as having any sort of future at all if it fails to maintain its internal cohesion. The prospects for that look dimmer by the day.

I can't see how relations with Africa are either here or there.
The link still works for me, neverfail; please try again. I found it persuasive - "a different take."
I followed your advice and this time it worked.

The opinion piece left me unconvinced for this reason: the author presumes that if NATO splits with US withdrawal that Europe will hang together with a sense of common interest and a shared destiny. I rather foresee Europe fragmenting as political rivalries within assert themselves to tear the subcontinent asunder.

Why should the Germans (for instance) wish to send their soldiers to Africa in support of maintaining France's neo-colonial interest there?

While Germany feels quite comfortable doing business with Putin's Russia, The Baltic states and Poland are near paranoid about their near neighbour to the east. How would the Germans, or even the Dutch for that matter, balance their own economic interests against the demands of this region to have their defence interests attended to? Of course the two are in direct contradiction.

Germany of course would be called upon to disproportionately foot the bill for the cost of a joint European defence posture. In the absence of the USA I foresee Germany regressing to form and cracking the whip - to let the other Europeans know that the Germans are no longer willing to be put upon. Long overdue but unfortunately it would inevitably arouse fearful nightmares of Greater Germany on the rampage again.

The final word probably goes to Alexis whom I now quote: there is no country called Europe.

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lzzrdgrrl
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Re: 'Europeans won’t fight" - Spengler.

Post by lzzrdgrrl » Sat Jul 14, 2018 8:01 pm

It begins to heat up after the twenty minute mark.....'>.......:

I have a certain notoriety among the lesser gods........

Jim the Moron
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Re: 'Europeans won’t fight" - Spengler.

Post by Jim the Moron » Sun Jul 15, 2018 4:37 pm

armchair_pundit wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 1:25 pm
Jim the Moron wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 7:08 am
neverfail wrote:
Sat Jul 14, 2018 12:14 am
Jim the Moron wrote:
Fri Jul 13, 2018 7:59 am
A different take on the future of NATO:

"The Coming Split in NATO"
https://www.defenseone.com/ideas/2018/0 ... annelriver

". . . it was the United States that was always dragging a reluctant Europe into policing conflicts."

"Now, however, we are on the cusp of a reversal. Americans, on the populist right, the socialist left, and most points in between, have lost their appetite for armed intervention."

"Europe, meanwhile, has no choice but to look southward, to the fragile states of Africa, which hold the key to its future."

"Europeans will spend more on defense not in response to hectoring from Trump or his successors. Rather, they will do so out of necessity."

Europe's future dependent on relations with Africa, and not the US?
I have been unable to read your provided link Jim as it will not respond due to some unknown glitch. But just off the top of my head; I don't see Europe as having any sort of future at all if it fails to maintain its internal cohesion. The prospects for that look dimmer by the day.

I can't see how relations with Africa are either here or there.
The link still works for me, neverfail; please try again. I found it persuasive - "a different take."
I would love to see Uche's response to that.

another title for this artice could be wrote:The old imperialist bones of colonial Africa haven't all decayed away...
I hope Uche is still around. Meanwhile, there is this:

"Silicon Valley eyes Africa as new tech frontier"
https://phys.org/news/2018-07-silicon-v ... -tech.html

"Cyber colonialism?"

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