"You can never be China's friend" : D. Goldman

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Sertorio
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Re: "You can never be China's friend" : D. Goldman

Post by Sertorio » Mon Oct 21, 2019 3:57 pm

neverfail wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 1:17 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 5:03 am
neverfail wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 4:52 am

Spengler's comparison was with a Sicilian Mafia cell.
Complete nonsense. Where is Goodman going to find these things?...
Did you read the link interview in full?
I did. It is still nonsense. Comparing China with the Mafia? I would think that Israel is a lot closer to the Mafia than China, but I'm sure Goldman doesn't think so...

neverfail
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Re: "You can never be China's friend" : D. Goldman

Post by neverfail » Mon Oct 21, 2019 10:35 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 3:57 pm
neverfail wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 1:17 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 5:03 am
neverfail wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 4:52 am

Spengler's comparison was with a Sicilian Mafia cell.
Complete nonsense. Where is Goodman going to find these things?...
Did you read the link interview in full?
I did. It is still nonsense. Comparing China with the Mafia? I would think that Israel is a lot closer to the Mafia than China, but I'm sure Goldman doesn't think so...
:lol: Oh, don't sound so grumpy about it Sertorio. :)

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Sertorio
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Re: "You can never be China's friend" : D. Goldman

Post by Sertorio » Tue Oct 22, 2019 2:49 am

neverfail wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 10:35 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 3:57 pm
neverfail wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 1:17 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 5:03 am
neverfail wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 4:52 am

Spengler's comparison was with a Sicilian Mafia cell.
Complete nonsense. Where is Goodman going to find these things?...
Did you read the link interview in full?
I did. It is still nonsense. Comparing China with the Mafia? I would think that Israel is a lot closer to the Mafia than China, but I'm sure Goldman doesn't think so...
:lol: Oh, don't sound so grumpy about it Sertorio. :)
China is far too big and too important for us to assess it and its performance in the superficial and irrational way used by David Goldman.

neverfail
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Re: "You can never be China's friend" : D. Goldman

Post by neverfail » Tue Oct 22, 2019 2:57 am

Sertorio wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 2:49 am
China is far too big and too important for us to assess it and its performance in the superficial and irrational way used by David Goldman.
Did you expect an interview to produce an encyclopedia sized book on the topic?

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cassowary
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Re: "You can never be China's friend" : D. Goldman

Post by cassowary » Tue Oct 22, 2019 3:09 am

neverfail wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 4:52 am
cassowary wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 2:23 am
Chinese people have no friends? What nonsense.
I thought that particular observation by Spengler might be a little suspect too.

Yet despite that possible omission; is he wrong in identifying Chinese society as one of dog-eat-dog competitiveness within: to the point where it is a society of ever ambitious anarchists held together from disintegration only by respect for the overriding power of their central government?

Spengler's comparison was with a Sicilian Mafia cell. It is only the power of the godfather that prevents the homicidal fiends who make up the cell's rank and file from slaughtering one another.
Chinese society is indeed very competitive. For us family is very important. That is why we put our family name first. So instead of John Brown, it would read as Brown John.

Families are very close. But this encourages corruption. People think that it is not wrong to be corrupt for they are only doing it for their families.

I know what you are going to say. "Then how come Singapore is not corrupt?"

Singapore, like HK, is different. It is in fact a hybrid between Chinese and western societies. LKY and other founders were educated in England and 150 years of British colonial rule have rubbed off on us.

So it is dangerous for anyone to think that Chinese or any society is static. Like all societies, China has changed and will change. You cannot assume that just because China was ruled by an emperor supported by a mandarinate, it will continue to do so.

The west must prove that their democracy works better. What I see is the left (eg warren and Sanders) keep pushing the country into bankruptcy with their policies.

.......................................................................................................................

One more comment. I think the closest western society to the Chinese is the Italian.
The Imp :D

neverfail
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Re: "You can never be China's friend" : D. Goldman

Post by neverfail » Tue Oct 22, 2019 5:33 am

cassowary wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 3:09 am
neverfail wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 4:52 am
cassowary wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 2:23 am
Chinese people have no friends? What nonsense.
I thought that particular observation by Spengler might be a little suspect too.

Yet despite that possible omission; is he wrong in identifying Chinese society as one of dog-eat-dog competitiveness within: to the point where it is a society of ever ambitious anarchists held together from disintegration only by respect for the overriding power of their central government?

Spengler's comparison was with a Sicilian Mafia cell. It is only the power of the godfather that prevents the homicidal fiends who make up the cell's rank and file from slaughtering one another.
Chinese society is indeed very competitive. For us family is very important. That is why we put our family name first. So instead of John Brown, it would read as Brown John.

Families are very close. But this encourages corruption. People think that it is not wrong to be corrupt for they are only doing it for their families.

I know what you are going to say. "Then how come Singapore is not corrupt?"

Singapore, like HK, is different. It is in fact a hybrid between Chinese and western societies. LKY and other founders were educated in England and 150 years of British colonial rule have rubbed off on us.
But not to the point where it has eliminated your Chinese roots, eh?
cassowary wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 2:23 am
So it is dangerous for anyone to think that Chinese or any society is static. Like all societies, China has changed and will change. You cannot assume that just because China was ruled by an emperor supported by a mandarinate, it will continue to do so.
But why not? In terms of their domestic power structure the only difference I can see between the PRC and that of the Imperial dynastic states of old is that in the case of the latter the Emperor administered his empire through a privileged scholar-bureaucracy, well versed in the teachings of Confucius and selected via public examination. The new Emperor (sorry, President for life) of China rules through a party-bureaucracy purporting to be Communist but whose members probably never deign to read up on Marx or Lenin. Even the little red book of the late Chairman Mao is probably even disdained as passe'. The only difference I can detect (figuratively) amounts to a change in the colour of the icing - not in the texture of the cake.
cassowary wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 2:23 am
The west must prove that their democracy works better. What I see is the left (eg warren and Sanders) keep pushing the country into bankruptcy with their policies.
I believe that "democracy" (not to be confused in identity with the USA) has nothing to prove but that China, for reasons vividly described by David Goldman, is highly likely to ever become one. As for Warren and Saunders neither are in government so how can you allege with any credibility that they are pushing the country into bankruptcy with their policies? :?

.......................................................................................................................
cassowary wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 2:23 am
One more comment. I think the closest western society to the Chinese is the Italian.

I absolutely agree with that observation Cass. You might even like to discuss that point with me further?

P>S> A pleasure to have read your most recent post (above).

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Sertorio
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Re: "You can never be China's friend" : D. Goldman

Post by Sertorio » Tue Oct 22, 2019 5:39 am

neverfail wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 5:33 am
cassowary wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 2:23 am
One more comment. I think the closest western society to the Chinese is the Italian.

I absolutely agree with that observation Cass. You might even like to discuss that point with me further?
Would either of you care to explain how China looks like Itay, or vice versa?... :shock: :shock: :shock:

Jim the Moron
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Re: "You can never be China's friend" : D. Goldman

Post by Jim the Moron » Tue Oct 22, 2019 7:40 am

Sertorio wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 5:39 am
neverfail wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 5:33 am
cassowary wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 2:23 am
One more comment. I think the closest western society to the Chinese is the Italian.

I absolutely agree with that observation Cass. You might even like to discuss that point with me further?
Would either of you care to explain how China looks like Itay, or vice versa?... :shock: :shock: :shock:
It was commonplace for Thais educated in Europe to refer to Thailand as the Italy of Asia. This was based on perceived similarities in life-styles. Perhaps cassowary perceives a similarity in the weltanschauung of folks in China with folks in Italy.

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Sertorio
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Re: "You can never be China's friend" : D. Goldman

Post by Sertorio » Tue Oct 22, 2019 10:03 am

Jim the Moron wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 7:40 am
Sertorio wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 5:39 am
neverfail wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 5:33 am
cassowary wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 2:23 am
One more comment. I think the closest western society to the Chinese is the Italian.

I absolutely agree with that observation Cass. You might even like to discuss that point with me further?
Would either of you care to explain how China looks like Itay, or vice versa?... :shock: :shock: :shock:
It was commonplace for Thais educated in Europe to refer to Thailand as the Italy of Asia. This was based on perceived similarities in life-styles. Perhaps cassowary perceives a similarity in the weltanschauung of folks in China with folks in Italy.
Probably. But I would still like to know what those similarities are supposed to be...

neverfail
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Re: "You can never be China's friend" : D. Goldman

Post by neverfail » Tue Oct 22, 2019 4:01 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 10:03 am

Probably. But I would still like to know what those similarities are supposed to be...
You very likely invited Cassowary to explain the comparison and I am also waiting to read his take. But the temptation for me to butt in is irresistible - so please pardon me if I appear rude.

neverfail wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 11:18 pm
https://www.asiatimes.com/2019/10/artic ... -spengler/

The idea of public trust and subsidiarity that’s fundamental to democracy is unknown to the Chinese.
Italy, like China, is ancient. It is the second most ancient pocket of civilization (as we normally define 'civilization') in Europe after Greece. The times I have been there I came away with the impression of layer upon layer of civilization superimposed one atop the other - like successive layers of organic trash in a compose heap nurturing the dense growth of weeds sprouting on top.

Compared to Italy, even France looked and felt like a young country.

(Bearing in mind that I dwell in the very last region of planet Earth to have emerged from stone age conditions - so I am, sort of, a bit of an expert on young countries and correspondingly something of a connoisseur of antiquity. 8-) )

Now, after that digression I get to the point. Ever since the end of the Second World War, after the Italians lynched the Fascist dictator Mussolini and his mistress, Italy adopted parliamentary democracy as its mode of government. Democracy was after all the mode of government cherished by Italy's WW2 invaders and Italians have a long history behind them of striving to please and flatter their invaders and conquerors.

Democracy in Italy has not worked. The whole point of elected government (or so I have been led to believe) is to provide good government. Italian democracy has failed to furnish even a single term of good government. There are millions of Italians who hanker for their sham of a democracy to be abolished in favour of something more autocratic. Benito Mussolini (so legend has it) "made the trains run on time". Authoritarian government gets things done whereas elected politicians waste their time and the country's resources frigging about trying to perpetually outmaneuver one another.

Italian society, like Chinese society, lacks public trust and subsidiarity. For this reason I consider parliamentary democracy to be something like an alien graft on the surface of Italian society. Like the Chinese they lack a culture that sustains democratic forms of government that truly and accurately expresses who and what they are.
...................................................................................................................................

Here is food for thought for you Sertorio. With Mediterranean Europe I get the impression that they all suffer from a touch of the Italian syndrome of great private virtue in combination with equally great public squalor. manifest in ineffectual government and high public debt. By contrast the Nordic countries are well governed with wonderful public probity; high levels of trust and with national indebtedness under control. Yet while the Latin and Hellenic nationalities, allegedly the longest civilized, seem to collectively represent Europe's southern zone of corruption and public mismanagement the Nordic lands, allegedly the last in Europe to emerge from barbarism, seem to be by far the best governed. Having an old and venerable record of civilization is not necessarily an unmitigated asset while there is lots to be said for being a young country - don't you agree?

:D

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