Russian Propaganda, no More no Less

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Sertorio
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Re: the lazy capitalists' road to fortune.

Post by Sertorio » Mon Jan 14, 2019 3:52 am

neverfail wrote:
Sun Jan 13, 2019 10:05 pm

Marx reminds me of the sort of GP (physician) who is uncanny in his ability to diagnose a patient's ailment accurately and well but always fumbles in prescribing a suitable remedy.

But don't let that permit you to miss the point that I have been trying to make all along. Today's challenge is not to overthrow capitalism but to ensure that society at large reaps maximum benefit from it (and not just "the chosen few" :D positioned to reap all of the rewards if allowed free reign to do so ).

I also contend that the US structure of government, so open to manipulation by those elements in society least in need of government assistance, is ill designed to bring that about.
There is no doubt in my mind that the solution prescribed by Marx was a near total disaster. But what interests me in Marx is his ability to pinpoint the characteristics and consequences of capitalism, so early in the game. If he was alive today, I wonder whether he wouldn't be surprised at how accurate his analysis was...

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cassowary
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Re: Russian Propaganda, no More no Less

Post by cassowary » Mon Jan 14, 2019 5:35 am

Neverfail,

My idea of a strong state is as you described it. You view the free market as unruly and needs to be disciplined.

Suppose you start a restaurant business. The government starts with your assumption that stern discipline needs to be imposed because the unruly businessman cannot be trusted.

So you make all sorts of onerous rules and regulations. The fire inspector must inspect the premises before he gives you a license. Then the health inspector must also give his ok before you can open your door to the first customer. Then you need to get a permit from the labor department to make sure whatever rules you have are complied.

This is also my idea of a strong state and it invited corruption. The owner might be pressured to give a bribe less the crooked official delays his permit.

Now if all these rules are absent no bribe is necessary. So the more the government interferes with the businessman the more corruption.
The Imp :D

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cassowary
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Re: Russian Propaganda, no More no Less

Post by cassowary » Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:04 am

Never fail,

I notice that you have a wrong impression of capitalism. You think it’s a malign force that needs to be controlled by government. I see capitalism as a benign force that brings prosperity to mankind. Thus it should be unfettered by government.

Trumps deregulation and tax cuts have freed capitalism to some to some extent. Thus America is booming and is doing better than under oBUMa which, like you, see it as a malign force.

I concede that 5he government still has a role to play in economic life. The only time when government should interfere is when the areas where the free market does not work eg in cases of natural monopolies and in cases where there is a “tragedy of the commons”.
The Imp :D

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Milo
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Re: Russian Propaganda, no More no Less

Post by Milo » Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:20 am

cassowary wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 5:35 am
Neverfail,

My idea of a strong state is as you described it. You view the free market as unruly and needs to be disciplined.

Suppose you start a restaurant business. The government starts with your assumption that stern discipline needs to be imposed because the unruly businessman cannot be trusted.

So you make all sorts of onerous rules and regulations. The fire inspector must inspect the premises before he gives you a license. Then the health inspector must also give his ok before you can open your door to the first customer. Then you need to get a permit from the labor department to make sure whatever rules you have are complied.

This is also my idea of a strong state and it invited corruption. The owner might be pressured to give a bribe less the crooked official delays his permit.

Now if all these rules are absent no bribe is necessary. So the more the government interferes with the businessman the more corruption.
Like I said Cass, you have clearly never studied this with any attention.

It is the certainty of a strong state that allows you to do any of this in the first place, otherwise anyone who is stronger or more influential than you will just come in to your restaurant, eat, and then not pay and there would be noting you can do about it.

Inspections let your customers trust your place of business.

State backed currency lets them pay without carrying around a sack of gold.

Streets let your customers get to your door.

Laws about the conduct of officials mean that you can stop them shaking you down.

Incorporation lets you sue people who rip you off.

I cannot detect any indication that you have considered any of these things and it makes you come across like a 15 year old who gets his philosophy from talk radio.

neverfail
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Re: Russian Propaganda, no More no Less

Post by neverfail » Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:35 pm

cassowary wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 5:35 am

Neverfail,

My idea of a strong state is as you described it. You view the free market as unruly and needs to be disciplined.

Suppose you start a restaurant business. The government starts with your assumption that stern discipline needs to be imposed because the unruly businessman cannot be trusted.
Out here and in all other kindred Western countries we begin with the presumption of "innocent until proven guilty" So it is presumed at the start that the restaurateur is an honest businessman whose enterprise will be an asset to society at large.

That changes only if and when he proves to be a bad boy. My late father was a public health inspector who, during his long career witnessed many horrendous examples of restaurants and fast food joints failing to comply with acceptable standards of cleanliness and hygiene in food handling thereby endangering public health and safety .
cassowary wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 5:35 am
So you make all sorts of onerous rules and regulations. The fire inspector must inspect the premises before he gives you a license. Then the health inspector must also give his ok before you can open your door to the first customer. Then you need to get a permit from the labor department to make sure whatever rules you have are complied.
See my post above. Those rules and regulations are not in place to make like hard for the budding restaurant business and its proprietor but to ensure public health, safety and wellbeing. It is up to the restaurateur to maintain thye highest standards possible as part of the cost of doing business. it he cannot do this and still turn a profit then his business plan is not viable and he does not deserve to be in business.
cassowary wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 5:35 am
This is also my idea of a strong state and it invited corruption. The owner might be pressured to give a bribe less the crooked official delays his permit.
Lets us presume that, like my father, the health inspector or other public official was an honest professional diligent in the discharge of his duties and content to live off the income from his salary. That makes a difference does it not. My father never grew rich but he slept at night with a clear conscience.
cassowary wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 5:35 am
Now if all these rules are absent no bribe is necessary.
Yes, then we get outbreaks of mass food poisoning among members of the public who dined at shonky restaurants along with the deaths of employees in fires because restaurant owners were too cheap to install water sprinklers in the ceilings of their kitchens.
.....................................................................................................

Many years ago a workplace colleague of mine, an Indonesian immigrant who had been trained in his profession in Germany, told me that had he returned to Indonesia "I could now be making a lot more money than I am here." That surprised me as Indonesia does not have a reputation for being a land of high wage and salary incomes. My colleague then described how Indonesian friends who had been trained in the same profession in Germany (as town planners) and then returned to their home country regularly shake down Chinese businessmen keen to build shopping malls and the like. They find all kinds of excuses to indefinitely postpone until the entrepreneur gets the message and is forthcoming with the bribe. Satisfied with the payment the same crooked officials them move heaven and earth to bet the businessman's development plans approved.

My Indo workmate then remarked "I could not do that. I would go home feeling that the money was not rightfully mine." This fellow was an Indonesian with a conscience who preferred to live off his (lesser) Australian salary then sleep with a good conscience at night that follow in the footsteps of his Indonesian fellow trainees and grow rich from graft.

I am well aware that in many countries abroad (not just in Indonesia) the payment of bribe money is the key to survival in business. In the case of a shonky restaurateur who brobes a health inspector in order to get around the health and safety rules; a crooked public official like that is arguably an even bigger menace to society than the crooked businessmen offering the graft.

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SteveFoerster
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Re: Russian Propaganda, no More no Less

Post by SteveFoerster » Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:55 pm

Milo wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:20 am
Like I said Cass, you have clearly never studied this with any attention.

It is the certainty of a strong state that allows you to do any of this in the first place, otherwise anyone who is stronger or more influential than you will just come in to your restaurant, eat, and then not pay and there would be noting you can do about it.
As I believe I've said during an argument about tipping, when I was a young man I was a waiter. And indeed, there was one group of influential people who occasionally came in and ate without paying: police officers. Management told us never to bring them a bill, because if we did we weren't sure what the consequences would be.
Inspections let your customers trust your place of business.
Not only can third party inspections be done privately, typically they are even today.
State backed currency lets them pay without carrying around a sack of gold.
Credit cards do that, and they're private. Even if someone wanted to use a gold or silver based system, one could connect them to a card or other easy to use technology. Having literally worked in the past for two different gold-denominated payment systems, this is something I assure you is not a problem.
Streets let your customers get to your door.
Highways and streets predate states. Just because most streets are built by states today doesn't mean that's a requirement. In fact, in the U.S. an increasing number of new highways are being built by an Australian company called Transurban, hearkening back to the practice of private turnpikes common in the 19th century.
Laws about the conduct of officials mean that you can stop them shaking you down.
Come on, now you're just being funny. When legislation is enforced by police who work for those officials, that legislation is effectively neutralised. Campaign finance legislation is especially amusing, since it serves less as a bulwark against corruption and more as an instruction manual for it.
Incorporation lets you sue people who rip you off.
Incorporation actually does the opposite of this, because its primary purpose is to limit shareholder liability.
I cannot detect any indication that you have considered any of these things and it makes you come across like a 15 year old who gets his philosophy from talk radio.
Yes, well, it seems that you cannot conceive of anything the state does that cannot be done without it. That's not Cassowary's failure of imagination, it is yours.
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neverfail
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Re: Russian Propaganda, no More no Less

Post by neverfail » Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:07 pm

cassowary wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:04 am
Never fail,

I notice that you have a wrong impression of capitalism. You think it’s a malign force that needs to be controlled by government. I see capitalism as a benign force that brings prosperity to mankind. Thus it should be unfettered by government.

Trumps deregulation and tax cuts have freed capitalism to some to some extent. Thus America is booming and is doing better than under oBUMa which, like you, see it as a malign force.

I concede that 5he government still has a role to play in economic life. The only time when government should interfere is when the areas where the free market does not work eg in cases of natural monopolies and in cases where there is a “tragedy of the commons”.
You misrepresent how I see private enterprise (I normally prefer that term to capitalism) thoroughly.

i did not say the market needed to be controlled. The word I used is that it has to be disciplined inorder to do any good.

Can you make the distinction?

Remember my comparison to cultivating my kitchen garden! Get rid of the weeds so that the valuable plants may prosper.

neverfail
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Re: Russian Propaganda, no More no Less

Post by neverfail » Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:21 pm

SteveFoerster wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:55 pm
Milo wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:20 am
Like I said Cass, you have clearly never studied this with any attention.

It is the certainty of a strong state that allows you to do any of this in the first place, otherwise anyone who is stronger or more influential than you will just come in to your restaurant, eat, and then not pay and there would be noting you can do about it.
As I believe I've said during an argument about tipping, when I was a young man I was a waiter. And indeed, there was one group of influential people who occasionally came in and ate without paying: police officers. Management told us never to bring them a bill, because if we did we weren't sure what the consequences would be.
Disgraceful! Who was at fault here Steve? Your boss for being scared to front up to authority figures like police officers and assert his rights or of the cops for taking advantage of his cowardice?

By treating police officers with misplaced reverence like that you only encourage petty corruption in the police force.
.....................................................................................................

By the way: with cassowary's help I have just recalled that in poor countries public officials, especially lower level ones, often resort to petty corruption because they are usually so poorly paid that unless they use their positions to solicit bribes they cannot make up a living income. Are not bellhops and hotel porters, waiters and waitresses and others employed in those similarly underpaid menial service categories of employment in North America who rely on tips and gratuities to make up something closer to a living wage in exactly the same position?

Now come on Steve. Is it not time that North Americans (figuratively) all pulled their fingers out of their bumholes and got cracking on demanding that such people be paid a fair remuneration by employers for their services.

Jim the Moron
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Re: Russian Propaganda, no More no Less

Post by Jim the Moron » Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:30 pm

The market must be "disciplined in order to do any good" (neverfai)

So, who is going to apply the discipline?

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SteveFoerster
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Re: Russian Propaganda, no More no Less

Post by SteveFoerster » Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:12 pm

neverfail wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:21 pm
SteveFoerster wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 2:55 pm
Milo wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:20 am
Like I said Cass, you have clearly never studied this with any attention.

It is the certainty of a strong state that allows you to do any of this in the first place, otherwise anyone who is stronger or more influential than you will just come in to your restaurant, eat, and then not pay and there would be noting you can do about it.
As I believe I've said during an argument about tipping, when I was a young man I was a waiter. And indeed, there was one group of influential people who occasionally came in and ate without paying: police officers. Management told us never to bring them a bill, because if we did we weren't sure what the consequences would be.
Disgraceful! Who was at fault here Steve? Your boss for being scared to front up to authority figures like police officers and assert his rights or of the cops for taking advantage of his cowardice?

By treating police officers with misplaced reverence like that you only encourage petty corruption in the police force.
No argument here. I'm pretty sure it was clear that I wasn't the decision maker in the situation.
neverfail wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:21 pm
By the way: with cassowary's help I have just recalled that in poor countries public officials, especially lower level ones, often resort to petty corruption because they are usually so poorly paid that unless they use their positions to solicit bribes they cannot make up a living income. Are not bellhops and hotel porters, waiters and waitresses and others employed in those similarly underpaid menial service categories of employment in North America who rely on tips and gratuities to make up something closer to a living wage in exactly the same position?

Now come on Steve. Is it not time that North Americans (figuratively) all pulled their fingers out of their bumholes and got cracking on demanding that such people be paid a fair remuneration by employers for their services.
Perhaps, but that wasn't even remotely the point of the story.
Writer, technologist, educator, gadfly.
President of New World University: http://newworld.ac

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